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Editor’s note: WorldNetDaily international correspondent Anthony C. LoBaido recently interviewed four top South African anti-communists who had high-ranking positions in South Africa’s former anti-communist government, military, academia and intelligence branch. One of these men ran the war in Angola against the Soviet Union and Cuba in the 1970s and 1980s. Their answers have been pooled in the interest of clarity and space.

The men are Pieter du Toit, a former South African air force pilot; Col. Wakefield Manner, the head of the South African Foreign Legion known as “32 Battalion” during the Angolan War; Afrikaner academic Harry Botha; and Jan Louis Coetzee, the former head of South Africa’s Department of Strategic Communication of the Department of Foreign Affairs, the covert intelligence unit of the agency.

WND: Back in 1992, then-President F.W. de Klerk purged the South Africa Defense Force of many top generals. Was he afraid of a coup? Could the generals have stopped the handover of South Africa to the ANC if not for this purge?

Du Toit: De Klerk was afraid of a reaction to his planned treason by the military. Yes, the generals could have stopped the handover with or without the purge. The purge had little influence as it concerned only minor personalities. The top structure of the SADF had long ago become so rotten that there was no resistance at all to the treason.

Yet actually quite a number of officers could not figure out why certain officers were being promoted so rapidly – there was something wrong somewhere. Then things started happening round about 1992, when we believe that certain of these favored officers gave a list of names of suspect senior officers who were not likely to accept changes – a large number of senior officers left the service. The unfortunate situation in the South African Defense Force was the fact that it had been politicized. In the main, senior officers were National Party members first and officers second – this made it easy for them to be controlled from Parliament. Quite a number were also members of the Broederbond.

Manner: There is no doubt whatsoever that had the generals been true to the requirement of their commissions – to serve their country, not the National Party – they could definitely have stopped de Klerk and his quislings – they knew the situation. Unfortunately for the country and its future, their salaries and perks came before their responsibility to the country and its people. When one sees the early retirement handouts that these gutless officers received – they were contracted out with huge payouts far in excess of normal retirement gratuities. They virtually sold their commissions. Of all the options the de Klerk government had, they settled for the worst one – total capitulation, as dictated by the United Nations, the American State Department and the British Foreign Office.

Coetzee: De Klerk never really had any involvement with the security services and with the State Security System. He simply believed the propaganda in the news media aimed at discrediting the State Security System. Naive de Klerk thought that he would be the world’s hero by dismantling the state apparatus. He was and still is. The generals were loyal to the constitution and never contemplated the overthrow of the de Klerk government. Both instances were a mistake: De Klerk should have kept the state apparatus in check until the outcome of the political negotiation process, and the generals, upon observing the capitulation, should have taken over the government to ensure a better deal.

Botha: The generals would not have conducted a coup. Their approach was that they bought the time during the bush war (revolutionary war) for the politicians to get their strategy and policy in place. In 1989, at Phalaborwa Military Base, F.W. addressed the generals and told them that they will now take over to conduct the political war. A general and true friend told me that when they left the gathering they agreed that F.W. didn’t understand the situation and would ignore the generals and the military intelligence for that matter from then on. He did, and he lost.

WND: What role did the CIA have in turning over South Africa to the ANC, including President Bush Sr., the CIA, U.N., European Union and U.S. State Department?

Du Toit: The total shambles that has resulted (in South Africa) since 1994 confirms CIA interference and their usual incompetence.

Manner: They were behind the scenes, with lucrative financial and other inducements to white players.

Coetzee: It is unclear what role the CIA played. The role of the British intelligence is clearer. They played a decisive role and, to my mind, had some grip on de Klerk. The CIA maybe played a secondary role in assisting British intelligence. The British ambassador here at the time, a grade-5 ambassador, was promoted to grade 1 (Washington), probably as a means to thank him for his successful role.

Botha: The isolation of South Africa’s euro-ethnics … was a more direct result of U.S. foreign policy, i.e., the State Department. Carter played a bigger role. The CIA at that stage tried to infiltrate the so-called right wing militants to set up a base for reaction against the new government but failed because of MI6 (British) counter-actions. The U.S. wanted Dr. Gerrit Viljoen as president, but the UK succeeded to establish F.W. de Klerk.

WND: What about the ANC’s connections to Islamic states, especially Iraq and others hostile to the West and the U.S?

Manner: Azania – the so-called new SA, the black, communist state set up in South Africa – has definitely turned over at least some of white South Africans’ technical know-how, resources and parts of the nuclear plant at Pelindaba to Red China, possibly also to Islamic regimes. Trevor Tutu, son of Desmond Tutu and opportunist extraordinaire, played a key role and made bucks out of it, like possibly many other black “empowered” gentlemen.

Botha: The ANC has to pay war debt to countries in the communist block who supported and trained them during the 26 year of revolutionary war. They gave laser and biological weapon technology to China, although many of this technology – nuclear, bio, chemical, laser – was destroyed before the takeover by Afrikaner scientists under the auspices of U.S. and UK supervision. For example, the case against Dr. Basson was a scapegoat for the phobias of the ANC who lost the military war but won the psychological war. They lost the cases against the generals and Basson and realized they would not succeed by default.

WND: What about South Africa’s nuclear program? What happened to the nuclear weapons?

Manner: At some stage, an SADF colonel was driving around with the six or so little nukes South Africa had in his car’s boot (trunk). One should try and find out. My guess is that they were given to either the Yanks or the Israelis. The Azanians definitely do not have them, that’s for sure.

WND: What about Eugene Terreblanche and the now defunct Afrikaner Resistence Movement? What about his invasion of the homelands?

Du Toit: I’m afraid the AWB lived in some sort of dreamland under the National Party government – some of the far right thought them to be the guardians of the Afrikaners future, come what may.

Unfortunately, they were not taken seriously by most whites in South Africa. They were ridiculed by a large portion of the population. They had two really major faults which negated any real support. Firstly, their bombastic attitude, which in the main was due to their very poor leadership. In fact, we used to say that the AWB changed leadership every weekend after their barbecue. Eugene Terreblanche was an excellent orator but lacked dynamic leadership; his military capabilities are very limited…

At present, one neither hears nor sees anything of the AWB – they were so infiltrated by informers that they were a danger to any action.

Their leader, Eugene Terreblanche, is in jail. At present he is trying to get out on parole. Unfortunately, he has the wrong color skin. His whole trial was strange, to say the least, but the ANC is determined to make examples of whites. Winnie Mandela – who is known to have been involved in the murder of a black youth which involves cruelty of a barbaric nature for which she was sentenced to a very nominal six years jail – has not done a day in jail and never will. She owes ABSA bank 900,000 rand, which she certainly won’t pay. She is mixed up in all sorts of strange situations, but she is totally untouchable being in the ANC hierarchy. Boesak, another ANC who committed fraud involving millions of rand, was given six years jail, did six months under almost hotel conditions and has been released and now has a very similar job within the establishment. All is forgotten. The list is endless of the double standards of the ANC. If you are black, you can break into a church and shoot the congregation and get off scot-free. The same for farm murders – hardly any effort is made to arrest them; they are heroes as far as the blacks are concerned.

Manner: The AWB was riddled with agents, informers and agents provocateur. The “invasion” of the black homeland was ill-conceived, badly planned and disastrously implemented. . . .

Coetzee: The question should rather be asked where the money came from to enable a relatively poor official of the former Secret Police to set up a paramilitary apparatus such as the AWB, with its (Nazi-like) banners, uniforms, etc. Someone should study precisely what the AWB did where and when and divert the activities to a budget. Then one should evaluate the situation [to see] whether it was reasonable to expect such huge funds coming from individual sources. Another in-depth research should be done on exactly what the government’s secret project to discredit right-wing politics in SA . . . precisely entailed.

Botha: The AWB was a government setup from the start to open the gate for negotiations with the ANC and discredit the conservative Afrikaner by linking him with Nazism. It was the most brutal and destructive mechanism to destroy the Afrikaner resistance ever devised in the history of the Afrikaner people by the left-wing National Party ministers of the time.

WND: What about the Freedom Front? Why did it split? Could it have saved South Africa from globalism and Marxism? Can South Africa be saved today? If so, how?

Du Toit: The Freedom Front came about as a result of the demise of the AVF (Afrikaner Volksfront/Afrikaner Peoples Front). Gen. Constand Viljoen formed the Freedom Front as an Afrikaner political party against the wishes of the AVF to go into the 1994 elections – so alienating a large part of his following he was considered a traitor by the AVF. I personally don’t think so; at that stage the Afrikaner was so divided that their chances of achieving any cohesion was virtually nil. However, having got to Parliament and being involved in the antics of the ANC, Gen. Viljoen realized that a handful of whites represented in Parliament would never achieve anything for the Afrikaner, so he handed over the party to the few professional politicians of the Freedom Front who were quite contented to achieve absolutely nothing other than filling a few seats and drawing a substantial salary and all the perks. There is absolutely no chance that the Freedom Front could have ever saved South Africa.

There is absolutely no doubt that South Africa could be saved today – in fact, something will have to be done to stop the direction the ANC is taking the country. It is not only the whites who are fed up with the situation, but the anti-ANC feeling amongst the blacks is growing. This is a dangerous development in Africa. There is more than enough proof of trying to impose an alien voting system on an African continent – “one man one vote” is something they don’t understand. To the north of South Africa they are almost in a constant state of war.

In South Africa, besides the whites you have 11 nations – strange how they are referred to as tribes when talking in the African context, yet in Europe and Asia and even the red Indians in North America and Canada were considered nations. One would not refer to the French tribe or the German tribe, yet black nations living in their own countries much larger than most European countries are referred to as tribes.

These nations – such as the Zulus with their own king and the Tswanas and the Ndebele and all the others – consider themselves as nations. Now it suits the ANC to stick to the idea of one nation – but now the other nations are saying that party politics is not helping them, as you vote for a party and that party selects who they want in government. The result is that as the ANC, who represent mainly the Xhosa, are in power, and they feel nothing for the other nations. In the main the feelings are toward a confederacy with a central council and representation as individual nations with their own representatives. This is a system that Lord Carnarvon suggested round about 1876 as the only system that would work. There is no doubt that this type of government would be ideal for a positive future for this country.

The alternative will be a war; that is a certainty. The whites still control just about every aspect of the infrastructure of South Africa, and if they could get themselves together they could be a positive force to the formation of a confederacy – which would give this country a great future and not just a past.

Manner: The Freedom Front was set up by former Gen. Constand Viljoen to serve as his vehicle to keep whites compliant and subservient to the new black, communist regime. Its stated objective of an independent white Afrikaner homeland was never seriously contemplated, except as a dummy for whites to suck on. The Freedom Front did not split; it just slowly disintegrated as followers realized what was happening. SA can be saved, yes, but only if something happens to galvanize whites into making a stand, e.g., if somebody digs his heels in on a farm and defends it against an invasion a la Zimbabwe.

WND: What can Americans, Europeans, Australians do to help the Afrikaners and all freedom-loving people in South Africa today? What about the U.S. Congress or British Parliament?

Du Toit: Absolutely nothing. Unfortunately, they were totally anti-white (South African whites) and especially the Afrikaners in South Africa and were determined to put a black government into power. According to them, a white could do no right and a black could do no wrong. The anti-apartheid organizations had sprung up like mushrooms throughout Europe and America, pouring millions of dollars and pounds into the ANC coffers. Strangely enough, hardly any of this fortune ever found its way to the ordinary black people in the country. Everybody blamed the Afrikaner for apartheid, which is a load of rubbish. The Afrikaner only came into power in 1948. Apartheid was introduced by the British when they introduced the Act Of Union in 1910 and the blacks were left out of the government.

That the Afrikaner passed certain discriminatory laws in their tenure of power is true, but by 1970 these laws were being dismantled, the country was going in the direction of a federation. Unfortunately, the separate development policy that Dr Verwoerd had introduced was not allowed to be recognized by the international community and so never really got off the ground. . . .

Mandela was tried for treason and sentenced to life imprisonment – it was just what the ANC/SACP wanted. They now had a martyr who they could sell to the international community, and the Mandela myth was born. I doubt whether we will ever know what part the KGB and Joe Slovo played in the red-handed arrest of Mandela and his men in the house in Rivonia; I’m pretty certain that the SAP did not do it on their own.

Well, the myth worked and the martyr became president with the total help of all those mentioned in your question. Unfortunately, Mandela, like de Klerk, was a useless president.

All they did was languish in the limelight of their actions. They put a black government into power with the most fraudulent elections ever held, even by African standards. . .

So the likelihood of the international community doing anything to correct their total failure to understand the African situation, having sanctioned it so completely, is very unlikely.

Manner: They must carry on doing what they are doing now – i.e., introducing all sorts of pro-Christian and pro-European/white policies like influx control and the fight against terrorism.

Coetzee: We are in the process of creating an Afrikaner Alliance and an Afrikaner Representative Council outside politics in a body similar to the Jewish Board of Deputies. We need your moral and financial assistance in the creation of overseas offices. Our documentation, at this point in time, is in Afrikaans only. English versions are possible, however.

WND: Nelson Mandela has stated that the ANC is “more corrupt than the apartheid government.” What are your feelings about ANC corruption?

Du Toit: Corruption is a common ailment in most governments today. The problem with the ANC is the fact that they did nothing to build this country to what it was when they took over. They are like children let loose in a sweet shop. They are wasting everything not realizing that what they are wasting will have to be replenished. Unfortunately, this corruption is from top to bottom in the ANC. Their motto was revolution before education; now we have thousands of semi-educated and uneducated blacks who have to be given jobs. The result is that with affirmative action – which in actual fact is job reservation – firms are having to get rid of qualified whites and replacing them with unqualified blacks. These people have never been in a situation of handling so much money. The result is corruption is rife as very little is done to the culprits. The country is suffering losses amounting to millions.

The result is that almost all the amenities are almost destroyed – hospitals, schools, the civil service, the SANDF and the police are in a poor condition. It is an accepted fact that as the percentage of blacks are recruited in any organization the efficiency deteriorates. . . .

Manner: Every black government in Africa is corrupt. Only the degree differs, and how much there is to be corrupt about.

WND: What is your opinion of Mandela and Mbeki, their ties to transnational elites, AIDS, etc.?

Du Toit: Neither Mandela nor Mbeki are leaders. Mandela was the martyr created into a myth. He never was a true president. Strange as it may seem, he had the opportunity of being the greatest president ever if he had accepted the reality of the complex political situation of this country with 11 nations and did something about a federation or confederation. At that time the whites were prepared to give him their support, but other than traveling around the world accepting the accolades of the international community, for South Africa he did very little, and he got out as soon as he could.

Mbeki is definitely not a leader, especially not for South Africa. He spent so much time out of the country prior to the 1994 election that no one really knew how he appeared on the scene, especially as vice president. The blacks don’t know him. He is very unpopular.

There is very little doubt that he was imposed on South Africa by the international community, especially the State Department and the British Foreign Office.

There is a very good chance that there is going to be a serious split in the government – various political parties are ganging together against the ANC at present. What the outcome will be is anybody’s guess, but very interesting times are ahead.

One thing certain is that Mbeki is not satisfied with just being president of South Africa. He has his sights on much bigger things. That is why he is totally behind the idea of an African Union with him as its president. He is spending billions of South African taxpayers’ money propping up all the useless governments to the north, Mugabe, etc. As far as AIDS is concerned, I think Mbeki’s remarks are known internationally.

Manner: Mandela is a puppet whose strings are pulled by highly paid advisers in the back. He was and is the smiling, goody-goody face of the ANC/SACP communist regime. Mbeki is far closer to what black, communist rule is really about: racist, incompetent and corrupt, but brutal and highly effective in eliminating any serious opposition.

Coetzee: Both are, within the context of African politics, exceptional personalities. What will happen after them is unknown.

WND: What about the South African Defense Force and the police? What is their current status in terms of effectiveness?

Du Toit: There is no SADF anymore; it is now the SANDF [the renamed South African National Defense Force], and as efficient as the SADF was, so inefficient the SANDF is. Discipline is non-existent. If a white tries to discipline a black he is termed a racist. Officers and other ranks fraternize openly. Promotion is dependent on having the right color skin, not qualifications or efficiency. Most white officer have taken packages. The air force is practically non-existent.

The [police] is no different. There are so many of them who are part of the gangs that people are hesitant to phone for police assistance; you are likely to find yourself arrested.

It is almost a waste of time phoning a police station for help. They most probably only have one vehicle and that has not got any fuel. Or if they have fuel, they are handling seven cases with only one vehicle. They in the main are having a hard time. The government could not care less.

Manner: They are being transformed from efficient, reasonably fair and just white/black forces to the normal armed black rabble you can see anywhere in Africa, with the difference that here it will take longer, and there will be more white lackeys prepared to stick it out and help maintain a certain level of standards longer. But go down they will.

WND: What are you most proud of as a South African patriot?

Du Toit: The only thing I feel that I can really feel proud about is our history up to about the early 1900s, the handful of farmers who took on the British Empire. The British Empire, who when they could not win on the battlefield, forced the commandos to lay down their arms by killing 27,000 women and children, burning 30,000 farms and slaughtering millions of cattle.

Manner: There is lots to be proud of in the past, nothing to be proud of today, after the most cowardly, unnecessary handover of a country to its enemies and parasites in all of history.

WND: What is your opinion of F.W. de Klerk and his wife’s recent murder?

Du Toit: What sort of an opinion can one have for a person who sold out his country and his people? As far as his wife’s murder is concerned, there has been all sorts of insinuations in the press. However, everything has gone very quiet, ominous, one could say.

Manner: De Klerk is a traitor and top lackey. His wife’s murder was just another one of the almost daily black-on-white killings. The murder only got some publicity because of her husband’s status.

WND: What about Zimbabwean dictator Robert Mugabe? How does his destruction of the whites in that nation bode for South Africa and the Afrikaners in particular?

Du Toit: Mugabe is a typical megalomaniac. It is amazing how practically every African leader tends to develop this characteristic. The strangest thing about this whole sorry state of affairs is the international community’s attitude toward the situation. U.S. President George Bush Jr. talks about fighting terrorism. Unfortunately, he and his puppet Tony Blair have a very selective sort of terrorism. One wonders whether it is terrorism they are fighting or have they some ulterior motive for their actions. Terrorism is alive and well and being practiced openly in Mugabe’s country gone mad. He is directly responsible for inhuman treatment of people black and white and terrible cruelty toward animals on the farms.

The most distressing aspect of this situation is that it appears that a black can do no wrong and a white can do no right in Africa, according to the international community – especially the Americans, British and the Europeans.

As far a South Africa is concerned, the blacks have been given the idea that they can do no wrong as far as the international community is concerned and are going out of their way to destroy everything that is of Afrikaner origin. They are determined to destroy the Afrikaner nation.

Mbeki thinks that as long as he passes laws to take whatever he wants from the Afrikaner he is safe. So unlike his buddy Mugabe, who with his thugs just go onto a white farm and do as they like, Mbeki says he will do the same by introducing laws to take over farms, etc.

There is only one big difference: In South Africa, there are about 4 ? million whites. Of these there must be about 3 million Afrikaners, and of these about 1 million Boer Afrikaners, the offspring of those few thousand untrained farmers who took on the British Empire. . . . The vast majority of the men between 30 and 60 have been militarily trained – national service was about the best thing that happened to the Afrikaners.

This is a very potential latent army. Add to this the fact that the whites, and in particular the Afrikaner, control practically everything in this country at present and you have a force that if it really got organized could stop the ANC/SACP in its tracks with very little effort.

So it might be in the interest of the international community to tell Mbeki to think twice before he thinks he can imitate his friend Mugabe, laws or no laws. When the Afrikaner, and in particular the Boer Afrikaner, decides that he has had enough all hell will break loose. That situation is fast approaching.

Manner: It is excellent news, if it serves to wake up South African whites to what is in store for them and induces them to do something about it.

WND: Is there a future for whites in South Africa?

Du Toit: I am certain there is a future for whites in South Africa. How they attain this future is going to depend on what the ANC/SACP do. It could be attained peacefully, or it could be a bloody fight, but a future will be secured. There is only one problem with this situation. That’s if the ANC/SACP decide on confrontation – a lot of innocent blacks are going to die. The ANC/SACP have not got a fighting force that is worth a damn thing. Who knows? Maybe the Americans and Brits will try and keep the ANC/SACP in power. They are going to need one hell of a lot of body bags.

Manner: Yes. If they start fighting for their survival.

WND: What about Seer van Rensburg and his prophecies? Do you believe them? Do the Boers in general? The ANC?

Du Toit: It’s strange when you read Seer van Rensburg’s visions as set out in various books. You can with a slight stretch of the imagination relate them to happenings that have occurred. However, like with Nostradamus, his time factors are difficult to pinpoint. Nostradamus talks in quatrains, which can mean four years or 40 years, etc. The Seer tends to jump all over time – very confusing. Another problem is the Seer lived in our times, not hundreds of years ago, yet he puts strange names to various people and things which can be interpreted as you like. Anyway, who knows? He could be right. We will wait and see. A lot of what he said must start happening soon.

That the Afrikaners believe him is true, but they are very divided. There are those who want to believe him; there are those who believe him implicitly and are sitting back just waiting for things to happen; and there are those who think it a load of rubbish. Take your choice. As far as the ANC is concerned, I would be surprised if any of them have even read any of the visions. For certain, I don’t think they would take them seriously.

Manner: It is difficult to judge Seer van Rensburg, as difficult as Nostradamus. Many different people can read many different things into his prophecies. Many of the Boer people believe in his visions, but that alone will not change anything. It will only cause people to sit back and do nothing while the country is going to the dogs.

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